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if I went with foam latex...
May 28, 2006
silicone or foam latex next?
by sven at 8:00 am
I've got a puppet in progress right now that will be cast in flexible expanding urethane foam ("cold foam"). It will have an outermost skin of latex, which will be painted directly into the ultracal 30 mold. The armature will be made of aluminum armature wire.
I'm committed to seeing the puppet through -- but already I'm pretty sure that I won't be using this techinique again.
After this puppet, I want to make either a foam latex puppet or a silicone puppet. I suspect that one of these two materials will become my default for casting puppets here-on-out. Pros and cons for each...
Foam latex:
- Pro: It's light and fluffy.
- Pro: It's reasonably easy to repair if you need to tear it open for surgery -- which is particularly important if you're going to have a metal-jointed armature that needs tightening from time-to-time.
- Pro: Painting "only" requires PAX paint and talc.
- Con: It rots over time -- in perhaps as little as 6 months to 3 years.
- Con: It's difficult to mix right; there are four components that need to be frothed, and timing matters.
- Con: It's tricky getting the foam to cure; it's sensitive to temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure.
- Con: You need a dedicated oven and kitchen mixer -- which take up space, and are an additional cost.
- Con: It's vulnerable to brass (due to copper content) and to oils... Like the natural oils on your hands.
Silicone:
- Pro: It doesn't rot. It should last at least 30 years.
- Pro: There are only two components (well, three with slacker/deadener) -- and you don't have to froth them in a mixer.
- Pro: The curing doesn't require baking. It should work so long as you get the measurements right and stir well.
- Pro: You don't need to make space for a stove and kitchen mixer.
- Pro: Brass armatures shouldn't pose a problem.
- Con: It's rather heavy.
- Con: It's difficult to paint; the only thing that sticks to silicone is silicone.
- Con: Repairing tears is difficult or impossible; this makes it hard to tighten a metal-jointed armature.
- Con: It's vulnerable to sulfur, which is found in many brands of plasticene.
- Con: Silicone is somewhat more expensive than foam latex.
The notion that foam latex is going to rot so quickly is really appalling. ...But then, it's what Ray Harryhausen used. I wonder if part of me would always feel incomplete, if I didn't try making a foam latex puppet at least once? A thought experiment: If there was a class in Portland on making foam latex puppets, and the tuition was $250 -- and I got to keep all the tools and materials -- would I take that class? I think the answer is YES! -- in a heartbeat!
I've been pricing it out, and I think that I could actually get a foam latex set-up for only $90 - $100. ...But then, suppose that after I try it I find that don't want to keep working with latex? (Did I mention that it rots?) I'd be stuck with a big clunky oven eating up my precious space. If I got a used oven for cheap, I could probably just sell/give it back to the store where I got it. Even so, it feels weird to go through all that trouble and expense if I don't know that I'm going to stick with this material.
In the long run, I suspect that I'll wind up working with silicone. I just can't stand the idea of my puppets rotting away before my eyes. The main worry with silicone is that I'll need to get into the puppet to tighten joints -- but won't be able to. ...From what I've read so far, I think that I can cobble together a solution for painting the stuff. And all the other "cons" seem pretty surmountable.
I guess, then, that I ought to try silicone next. It's more likely to be the material that I want to stick with. If it's not, then I can try foam latex with a clear conscience. Or hey -- even if I love silicone, there's nothing preventing me from trying foam latex later on -- just for the sake of having the experience.
posted by sven | May 28, 2006 8:00 AM | comments (4) | categories: stopmo
Comments
Hey, I was in the process of putting together a similar list, but you beat me to it! I 'm having the same problems, just unsure which way to go...I'm REALLY worried about foam latex in the NOLA weather, we are extremely humid and hot here...the notion of the foam rotting doesn't bother me too too much, in fact it is appealing to me in a way...I went through this whole phase just after college where I drew with charcoal on really thin sheets of plaster (on wood) that eventually flaked away, in fact none of them have survived the years but I sort of like the idea that the art fades with time, like life...if it rots before the film is done I'll just use the mold to make another...
I do like that its easy to repair...I'm going to be using a wire armature for Jenny, no 'bones' in the legs b/c for the watery shots her legs are going to move like a fishy mer-tail, kind of wavy...and I know that wire only lasts so long, so with foam I could slit her, remove the whole armature (or broken parts if they are twisted through a wood or aluminum block in the hips or chest), make a new one, re-insert it, and patch with liquid latex if I need to...
DON'T like that silicone is difficult to repair and paint....DO like that its what you've decided on, b/c I think I've decided on foam, so we can experiment and compare notes :) ...won't happen for awhile on my end though, trying to save money, but if I haven't bought the makings by Dec. I'm thinking I'll tell everyone in my family to get me supplies for Christmas...
Til then I can't just let this new Jenny sit around....thats not in my nature ;)...so I'm going to experiment with a latex skin and stuffing (upholstryfoam/ cotton/ styrofoam/?)...gonna make a master copy (solid latex) of the sculpt first from the mold so I can re-mold if I need to when it comes time for foamy experimentation...weather would probably suit the foam better in the 'winter' anyway...
Posted by: ubatuber at May 28, 2006 12:58 PM
oh yeah, why no more cold foam? any particular issues or just ready to move on up? ...was kind of hoping it would work out, would be easier to deal with than the foam latex...
Posted by: ubatuber at May 28, 2006 1:02 PM
Well, I guess I haven't actually sworn off the cold foam. I'm just anticipating that it's going to be disappointing in puppet form -- because when I did a test batch in a paper cup, the cured material had about the consistency of a nerf football.
I had also really been hoping that the self-skinning foam wouldn't stick to gypsum -- but it does. That's really too bad, because cold foam seems really easy to paint -- I don't think you even need PAX. (Might be able to use a silicone mold -- but when I tried it, there was pitting in the foam's surface that I wasn't pleased with.)
Who knows: maybe when I finally get the cold foam puppet done, I'll discover that I really like the stuff after all. Even if that's the case, though, I still want to keep trying new materials at this point. So... Gotta do more silicone research.
(Btw: Did you know that Mike has a thread on SMA right now all about silicone? He's just made a purchase -- but is having ftp problems, and hasn't been able to update his blog.)
Posted by: sven at May 29, 2006 12:25 AM
i dont know if you know this but cold foam releases cyanide gas for a period of about 6 months after it cures
Posted by: payton at November 21, 2007 12:23 AM